Education by Design
Education by Design is hosted by Instructional Designer, Betsy Allen. We talk about all things education with an emphasis on higher ed and instructional design. Our episodes are recorded at the Woodland Community College eLearning Studio.
Education by Design
Part 2 of 2: Designing an Equitable Syllabus with Brent Clark
This episode is the continuation (part 2 of 2) of my discussion with sociologist and educator Brent Clark. We pick up our exploration of designing an equitable syllabus with student-centered policies that balance ideals with constraints.
So welcome to Education by Design. I'm your host, betsy Allen Instructional Design Resource Faculty at Woodland Community College. This is a podcast where we talk about all things education, with an emphasis on higher ed. We're coming to you today from the WCC e-learning studio in Woodland, california. Today is part two of my interview with Brent Clark, sociologist and educator at Woodland Community College and a few other places in Northern California, and I'm happy to have him back. We've been talking about creating an inclusive syllabus and in our discussion today we kind of turn the topic and we're talking about balancing, kind of the creation of these student-centered course policies and cultural responsiveness with the constraints of time and all the responsibilities that many adjuncts or part-time instructors have right with teaching. So we go down some really great avenues where Brent has a lot of experience in discussing and he gives us at the end some action items for all of us to do to take a look at our syllabi as soon as we're done here with our discussion.
Betsy Allen:I definitely went back to my own and started thinking about some of the languages and some of the approaches that my syllabus endorses. So I hope you enjoy our conversation today and here we go. Yeah, you know. So I'm dipping into another topic, but we're essentially talking about grading policy as well, and there's a book on equitable grading by Joe Feldman. I think he has several books, but I think this is called Equitable Grading, if I'm citing the right source. But he also says you know I'm paraphrasing generously here, but you can use your teaching expertise to determine if the student missed a big chunk of work. You know this is we have teaching expertise and we have authority to determine if learning has happened in certain areas, and so this might be a time where you know you use your own discretion and you say I need this assignment, this one and this one, because these are going to demonstrate to me, because I do see that you, you know, based on this quiz, this discussion, this you know project, you've met these other areas.
Betsy Allen:So if you do these for me, you're back on track. You know something like that as well. I mean, it's not, it isn't totally magical. You can go back and measure, you know, and then and that's part of our jobs as well Do you have thoughts on that, or yeah, absolutely I think, and that's where, in terms of course design, that's where we really have to dig into like assignment variety.
Brent Clark:I think so many times we think we're assessing knowledge mastery, but we're actually assessing something else. So if your course is just super exam heavy, we know that there are students that just don't do as well on exams. They do other types of assignments.
Betsy Allen:Right.
Brent Clark:And we can say, like I try to make my exams fair, I try to do X, y, z, but the reality is that you know, exams privilege certain students and make it harder on others.
Brent Clark:And that's just the cold hard truth and that's the reality with any type of assignment writing assignment. I do a lot of writing in my courses but I recognize that students are coming to me with a wide variety of writing skills and ability levels. So while we do a lot of writing, I also do like creative projects where I let students pick any modality that they want to turn it in. So I've had students turn in video essays and podcast episodes and digital posters and interviews and sometimes just taking out that element of this is an exam or this is a writing assignment can let students actually show that knowledge mastery. So while my classes probably will have students do more writing than they do in most non-English courses, the one type of writing assignment where I really evaluate them, based on mechanics and based on form and based on the requirements, that category is only worth 20% of their final grade. So as long as they turn in all those assignments and give forth a good effort, they can still get A in course, because it's not a writing course.
Brent Clark:That's just one of the modalities where I'm trying to test their mastery of knowledge, but I don't want their writing skill to be the fundamental thing that determines whether or not they pass.
Betsy Allen:I think that's a fabulous thing to incorporate. I'm thinking from a few different perspectives, one of which is universal design, for learning, we know, is important for all different brains, right. Like we also have to think of diversity in terms of all the all the different wirings we all have, right, and so if I have opportunities to express myself in different ways that would allow me to tap the knowledge I have, that maybe an essay just wouldn't for me, you know. The other thing I have to admit it's fun, and it's okay to be fun and learn, like, even if I choose to write the essay or something. If I get to see some of these other projects that people worked on and I can say wow, like, that is such a cool interpretation and it's just motivating, right. Do you think that's also part of this work?
Brent Clark:Yeah, yeah, I don't think that there's ever anything wrong with meeting students where they're at, and I think that's where sometimes we just have to put our ego aside as instructors, because we have worked very hard and done a lot of school and done a lot of training to get where we are, so we do know some stuff, but sometimes that's not as important as connecting. So, like, I've started to try to frame things in ways where students know what the heck I'm talking about. So, like I didn't used to, when I talked about the options for these projects, I didn't used to say video essays, but then I realized that I watch a lot of video essays on YouTube and I'm sure that my students are on YouTube and TikTok even more than I am and they know what a video essay is. So if I just say, hey, you can do a video essay, I see some students go, oh, you can, and I'm like, yes, absolutely you can. Right, in my online asynchronous courses I have video lectures.
Brent Clark:And one of the things I have to do is they watch the video lectures and have to leave a comment, just like you're leaving a comment on a video or article online, because my hope there is that for at least something that creates a level of familiarity, like, okay, I've done this type of thing before, I've watched something and left a comment before, so let me just watch this and try to absorb this knowledge, versus like watch this video and then now there's going to be a quiz, so now the students are going to sit there and rewind and try to get 100% and try to find the questions in the video, but they're not watching the video anymore for understanding. They're watching the video to complete this path. So sometimes I'm trying to trick the students into learning.
Betsy Allen:Fair enough Okay.
Brent Clark:Fair enough.
Betsy Allen:Okay.
Brent Clark:I think that's a lot of what we're doing in higher ed, but we just like, don't acknowledge it.
Betsy Allen:We don't acknowledge like Revealing the secret Brent. You know like.
Brent Clark:I remember playing basketball in high school and you do drills, right, and the point of every drill is that this translates to a certain situation in a real basketball game. But what happens when the coach doesn't explain we're doing this drill because of these in-game situations, well then the drill isn't as effective. And I see the same thing happen in classes all the time where, like, we're scaffolding something for students but they don't know that that's what's happening, right, and I just don't see the value in the mystery. Like it's not pro wrestling, like it doesn't work better if there's like an illusion behind it. Right, like it actually works better if everyone knows what's happening.
Brent Clark:So I'm so, and it's not easy, right, like I don't think this is how we all envision school, because this isn't how it was set up when we did it, right, so much of what we do is replicate what we thought through ourselves. So I'm trying to just model something different for students, where I'm trying to show them like I want you to consume the materials in this order, because I put thought into this order and hopefully, the ideas from this reading you'll then see in this video and then now, when it's time to do this project, you'll be able to put it together, but I don't want that to be like oh, he tricked me. I want them to be like okay, let me watch this video so that I can know what to do.
Betsy Allen:Right Again, treating students like adults, I think, is, you know, ultimately making that explicit Like here's why I'm taking you this path, All right, and and then having options along that path. I have a question about equitizing a syllabus to me, and I may be very far off. You are much more of an expert on this than I am, although I am very interested in your work.
Betsy Allen:I think it also involves a component in that syllabus to ensure that voices everyone has a voice, or that there is an inclusivity of voices Slash. We may talk about controversial things and here's how we do it. I'm just like this is a nebulous topic, but how do you define that? How do you coach people in that kind of area?
Brent Clark:Yeah, I think a lot of this is discipline specific. So as a sociology professor, there's kind of an inherent understanding that we're going to deal with sticky stuff.
Brent Clark:We're going to deal with real world issues. We're going to talk about stuff where people might already have mooch dog opinions, so I just try to front load um as many signals to my students that this is going to be like an inclusive and safe space for them as I can. So I will have a statement about treating you know everyone in the course of respect, about debating ideas but not debating people about you know, just a baseline level of professionalism, right. But I will also provide information about a variety of resources and programs on campus, just to let students know that, even if I'm not necessarily affected by all of these structural forces or I don't necessarily hold all the same identities as all of my students, I'm aware that that stuff matters. So just by providing you know, having a land acknowledgement statement at the beginning of a syllabi, or having you know a racial and ethnic equity statement in your syllabi, or having you know an lgbtq um you know ally acknowledgement in your syllabi, having information about um programs for students with disabilities or just tutoring.
Brent Clark:I'm trying to send messages to students that even if in your day-to-day life these different circumstances or identities or ideas or stereotypes affect you, that my goal is that this course isn't one of those times that, no matter what background or identity or position you're coming in with, you can do well in this course.
Brent Clark:And I've had students who have started the course like very um standoffish with some of the material and ideas right, but I think once they see that, like my goal isn't that, you agree with me. You actually see students say I used to have this opinion about these topics but after taking this course I kind of look at this a lot differently and I'm really glad I took this course. Nice, and to me that's like the biggest win for a professor because, again, like I, my goal is never to convince any specific student, it's just to provide them with information when it comes to their own conclusions. But when you see a student acknowledge that like hey, I was comfortable enough in here that I changed my mind in 2024, getting anyone to change their mind about anything.
Brent Clark:I think that's, you know, we can take that as a win right, Absolutely, and I don't think that that happens if you're creating like a combative or a stressful environment. I think that it can still be challenging. I think that all students really want to be challenged, but I think that you can challenge students while still affirming them, and so it's about kind of trying to find that, that sweet spot.
Betsy Allen:Have you seen? I think I've seen this a couple times in courses where there'll be an acknowledgement. It could be in the syllabus, it could be in another space in a course. I do mostly online courses, but um the acknowledge like an acknowledgement that there may be bias. Presently, I've done my best to make this course accessible to um provide a variety of viewpoints. However, I'm still learning. You know something to this effect and if you, at any time you know, have you seen this in syllabi or do you have something you recommend that we should think about?
Brent Clark:Yeah, I have two thoughts Okay, great. The first thought is absolutely I have something along those lines in most of my syllabi where I say, like I try to be as inclusive and respectful as possible. If I ever miss the mark, please let me know. Okay, please let me know. You know, if I ever say something that seems off or that seems offensive or seems marginalizing, please let me know.
Brent Clark:And at the same time, usually in week one, definitely by week two, I have a whole diatribe I go on in my courses about like over fixating on objectivity, because I feel like it's a real big problem in 2024 where, like I have my 18 year old just starting college students and like every answer they have is about why it's important to be objective and I'm like, oh yes, that's, but also we're not judges. So like sometimes we're talking about objectivity but what we're really trying to talk about is fairness, or what we're really trying to talk about is inclusivity, or what we're really trying to talk about is being factual. So I try to explain to students that we all have our own subjectivities and maybe more important than trying to be objective is trying to be honest and realistic about what your specific subjectivities are, so that you can then work through them so that when you're presented with information that may be right up into those subjectivity, you're aware of that, right, because the worst thing is someone who swears they're being objective in a situation where that's not really the context, right. So I try to explain to students like it's okay to have an opinion and you don't have to pretend like you don't have an opinion to do well on this course, and you don't have to pretend like you don't have an opinion to do well on this course. Where I will challenge you is if your opinion runs up against the social facts, and I'll just ask you like so how do you square this statement with these trends and these patterns and these statistics?
Brent Clark:Because ultimately, that's what we want to try to cultivate in our students. Like we don't want to put send a bunch of robots out into the world, especially like as a sociology professor in the social sciences, the whole value of social sciences is to like help students develop a strong analytical lens and a strong moral compass so that when they get out into the real world, they can have a positive effect. So in order to kind of facilitate them having a positive effect, I don't want to pretend like well, everything is even, every argument is the same. Like no, that's not true. Right. Like we learn about logos, pathos and ethos? Right, and like one of those is about, like your credibility. So credibility matters, sourcing matters, right. Like whether or not your argument aligns with what most people agree with matters.
Brent Clark:So I try to just have those really honest conversations with my students and let them know that, like, even if we're dealing with material that makes you uncomfortable, that might not necessarily be bad, and if you can actually honestly evaluate to yourself why this material is making you uncomfortable, that's when you might actually kind of start to have a breakthrough.
Brent Clark:So, but you can only do that if you've taken the steps and done the work to first make the course feel safe, right, right, no one just wants to be challenged, but once there's a certain level of trust and a certain level of understanding, then people will respond to being challenged. So I think again, that's that's the relationship between your syllabus and just a general course design is, if you can start being welcoming, start being open with the syllabus, it just gives you more room to be more demanding later. But if the idea is like this is a hard course, so this needs to be a hard syllabus. Well, now we're starting to kind of slice down on the segments of students that are going to really be comfortable and really be able to do as well as they could, on the segments of students that are going to really be comfortable and really be able to do as well as they potentially could.
Betsy Allen:I think there's so much to you said so much. There's a lot I want to unpack there, but I think it's also what you're suggesting can be hard work for instructors who maybe haven't been honest with themselves about what do you want to say, like humbled themselves to. This course may need improvement in terms of how either is there bias in my course that you know, am I open to getting that feedback from students? Number one into getting that feedback from students. Number one.
Betsy Allen:And number two is maybe not knowing or not sure how to guide students in having these respectful conversations, and I think you give a lot of great examples to anchor student discussion in reality, in fact, and helping them to you know, determine what you know, what's the difference between their opinion and what is, and that it's okay to have an opinion, but also to continue to be open and look at you know evidence in front of you, and that is a that's a tough thing to learn. If you didn't come through it, which most of us may not have had those perfect teaching learning experiences, we might have some models, but it's something that we're all learning. So I just think it's also can be brave for some people to begin this kind of work and maybe a little like okay, I feel like I'm opening myself up to something.
Betsy Allen:I might not be equipped to handle as an instructor.
Brent Clark:Yeah, I think it's okay to tell your students like I'm actually not an expert on that. Yeah, this is what I do know, and give me a few days and let me look into this further and I can come back with more information. Yeah, I think that students respect that more so than like oh, that's not what we're talking about today, because, like it came up right.
Betsy Allen:Yeah, and you're also moving away from, like I have to be the authority in this classroom, as opposed to I'm a guide, right, I'm a facilitator. I'm an expert facilitator in this classroom. As opposed to I'm the. I'm a guide, right, I'm a facilitator. I'm an expert facilitator in this. Let me figure it out. I have a question for you. This is something that I know, even you know when I first started teaching. I started teaching way long ago, but there was a lot of talk about co-creating a syllabus, right?
Betsy Allen:And I haven't seen a lot of evidence of that, but in my work, what do you suggest? Are there areas of a syllabus that could be co-created or lend themselves to co-creation with your students, or is that not a good idea? What do you think about that? I?
Brent Clark:think it's a great idea. I think that the limitation of reality can make it really hard, Right, I think that the limitation of reality can make it really hard. Just and again. This relates back to our last, you know. Point two is like we're teaching all these courses within a societal context, so like I would love to have my students help me develop like a code of conduct where they could determine you know, these are the guidelines, this is how we want you know, to treat one another just how we want the difficult conversations to go, and I think there's great value in that.
Brent Clark:I think that if you're in a situation where you can do that, you should go for it.
Brent Clark:But I also know like we're looking.
Brent Clark:We're talking about things like the adjunctification of higher ed, um, just the realities of the economy, where everyone is stretched so thin that all of that stuff can make those processes harder, because if you're going to do them, you really want to do it correctly, but then you have to weigh that against the fact that you probably have to turn in your syllabus to your department by the first writing, right? So maybe like splitting the difference is your syllabus says what your syllabus says, but you still take time in class to unpack it and get student input and have student conversations about well, what does this actually look like? How can we model this and what are some potential scenarios or contexts where this is specifically important? You know what type of topics might we talk about in here where we might need to recenter this idea of treating each other with respect to recenter this idea of treating each other with respect or of, you know, being responsive to varying levels of stress and anxiety related to this course right. Even if it's just a conversation within the first one or two course sessions, I think that goes a long way towards conveying to students that you actually care Okay.
Betsy Allen:Yeah, I have learned a lot today from our conversation, brent, and so I'm going to go back to the courses I teach and look at my syllabus. What's the first thing? Give me some marching orders. What are my jobs to do, do you think, as I leave to look at my syllabus now?
Brent Clark:my jobs to do. Do you think, as I leave to look at my syllabus now, I'd say, just start with. Are there sentences in this syllabus where students would need an unreasonable level of prior knowledge to know what the heck this means? Okay, because we're doing so much copying and pasting, you know with the, with the objectives and with you know from previous, from colleagues, that it can be easy to have a paragraph, that you know what you're saying and that another instructor would probably know what you're saying, but that a first year college student or a first year instructor even may read that and say what. So I think just going through and trying to make the language as concise and clear and welcoming as possible is a great place to start.
Betsy Allen:That is fabulous and I just want to thank you so much, brent, for joining us today. Brent, our guest, is instructor in sociology at Woodland Community College and wears many other hats. You're very important in the world. You're PhD candidate in sociology at UC Irvine and thank you so much for taking time out of your very busy schedule to join us, and you gave me actually many ideas for follow-up. Thank you, and thank you for everyone. Thank you for having me.
Brent Clark:I really had a ball.
Betsy Allen:this was really fun, wonderful, and thank you for listening. Thank you for having me. I really had a ball. This was really fun, wonderful, and thank you for listening to. Education by Design.